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Well, I’ve finished reading both Jessica’s and Mohammad’s books. Good reads both, if a little thin on some details.
My thoughts:
“Because Every Life is Precious”
Gotta feel for the guy, living through what he lived through for most of his life. Wastes no time getting into the pertinent actions i.e. the ambush and the next 9 days. A little to much John Wayne, however, makes me think that he pumped his story a little bit...not that it really matters.
“I am a Soldier, Too”
Pretty straight forward in the sections dealing with the ambush and Jessica’s captivity. The backstory was perfect...really set off the events after 3-23. I cried during the chapter on Lori...the only thing that makes it tolerable is that somewhere three is a timeline where both women survived and are still together as friends...I hope they live long, full, and happy lives in that place.
I would’ve preferred a bit more detail of Jessi’s ordeal...more insight into what was going through her mind...I understand that time was vert tight to get the book together, but I think the story suffered from the necessity to rush it to publication. Perhaps in the future details will come out...they have a way of doing that.
I did a comparative timeline between the two books to line up someone the pertinent events. Here it is, with some suppositions. Assume for the sake of argument that all events in the books are accurate and truthful...
3-23
The ambush...begins approx 5:30 am, finishes with capture of 507th survivors approx 7 am
Shortly thereafter, Mohammad sees the surviving POWs and bodies of the dead, including Lori. (Side note...I had posted a while back why the bodies in the hospital were shown with their pants open or shirts pulled up. I had forgotten that it is forbidden in Islam to define the shape fo the body between the navel and the knees...thus the dishdasha (the long flowing shirt down almost to the floor, for lack of a better description) that Arab men wear. Showing the American bodies in such a fashion was a way of demonizing them)
Approx 7am -m 10am Jessi loses the three hours. The rape and any injuries subsequent to the crash most likely happened here. Unknown if she was conscious for any of it, or if she’s blocked out what happened
Approx 10am - Jessica and Lori delivered to Military hospital after an unconscionable 3 hour delay (unless their captors were busy abusing them). Lori dies, Jessica wakes up, but fades in and out due to injuries. First treatment done to stabilize her.
THOUGHTS: Had their captors brought them to the hospital first thing, it is possible Lori may have survived to be rescued. The failure to promptly deliver medical attention to POWs when able to do so is a war crime in and of itself, particularly if it results in a prisoner’s death.
Afternoon – Jessica and Lori taken to Saddam Hospital. Jessi into 1st day of captivity.
3-24 to 3-26
Jessica endures 2nd to 4th day of captivity. Jessica wakes up in Saddam General approx 5 am 3-24. Prior to this she is in and out of it...after this date she’s awake much fo the time. No information specific to these dates in her book, but I sorta doubt she was concerned with the day of the week at the time. Lots of pain and little medication.
3-27
Jessica’s 5th day of captivity.
Mohammad sees Jessica slapped and goes to Marines.
NOTE: 5th day with extremely severe injuries and little to no corrective treatment or pain meds...may have actually happened and she just doesn’t remember it. Given the treatment POWs got from Saddam’s men, I wouldn’t put it past them...after raping her, a couple of slaps to the face is nothing.
3-28
Jessica’s 6th day of captivity
Mohammad’s 1st scouting of hospital
3-29
Jessica’s 7th day of captivity
Mohammad’s 2nd visit
Mohammad learns of plans to amputate leg on 3-30 (guesstimate as to date here)
Mohammad begs his Dr. friend to delay the amputation, sees Jessica in person (“good morning, Doctor” from her)
NOTE: As this is a seminal point of dispute, I believe that Jessica may have actually seen Mohammad, but after a full week with severe injuries, little to no medication, food, and the inability to eliminate bodily waste (possible uremic poisoning?), she may not have been able to remember it. Remember “The Iraqi man broke my arm”? She doesn’t remember saying it, but her father does.
3-30/31
Jessica’s 8th and 9th day of captivity. Attempt at amputation. After this time, Jessica attempts to stay awake out of fear.
Rescue planning
THOUGHTS: Jessica whips her head around to keep the breathing mask off her. Doctors stop the attempt. Perhaps both Mohammad AND Jessica played a part here...Mohammad’s entreaties to delay plus her own gumption to save her leg may have teamed up on the doctors here...looking for an excuse not to amputate. During this time her condition worsens. Possible uremic and fecal poisining due to inability to eliminate. Wounds become more infected
Unknown date, but after the amputation attempt, so probably the 31st
.
Attempted delivery via ambulance
4-1
Jessica’s 10th day of captivity
Rescue in early morning
Thoughts, anyone?
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My Thoughts On Both Books... ...and a possible event timeline
#1
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Posted 25 November 2003 - 11:37 PM
#2
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Posted 26 November 2003 - 12:49 AM
Very logical and precise, my friend. Good work putting both accounts together. Isn't there somebody putting an account of what happened in ANOTHER book, this one about the whole convoy? I've heard rumblings of such an effort from various media outlets.
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Posted 26 November 2003 - 03:15 AM
Good job analyzing the 2 books, Soprano84. I haven't read Mohammad's book, so you have the advantage over me, but I have 1 point to dispute in the timeline. I beleive the sexual assault took place when Miss Lynch was being transported from the military hospital to the civilian hospital.
Remember that the doctor who first treated her said that he didn't beleive the rape accusation because she was fully clothed when she first arrived at the military hospital. Other news reports have said that they cut away her clothes and took steps to stabilize her before transfering her. Other news reports also said that the doctors at the civilian hospital said she arrived there covered only by a sheet.
It seems to me that they stabilized her at the first hospital, threw a sheet over her and rushed her into an ambulance to be transfered to the second hospital. During that ambulance ride was probably when she was assaulted by the ambulance driver, or a guard riding along.
I had to reread sections of the book and some of the news reports I had saved to reconcile the comments of the various Iraqi doctors. That was when I realized that the first doctors who saw her were probably right in saying that she was still fully clothed when she arrived and they saw no evidence of rape. The docs who said she arrived covered only in a sheet are not contradicting the other docs, they were the second group of docs and she had been cut out of her uniform by the first group.
Well, that's my 2 cents for now. Am I making any sense?
Remember that the doctor who first treated her said that he didn't beleive the rape accusation because she was fully clothed when she first arrived at the military hospital. Other news reports have said that they cut away her clothes and took steps to stabilize her before transfering her. Other news reports also said that the doctors at the civilian hospital said she arrived there covered only by a sheet.
It seems to me that they stabilized her at the first hospital, threw a sheet over her and rushed her into an ambulance to be transfered to the second hospital. During that ambulance ride was probably when she was assaulted by the ambulance driver, or a guard riding along.
I had to reread sections of the book and some of the news reports I had saved to reconcile the comments of the various Iraqi doctors. That was when I realized that the first doctors who saw her were probably right in saying that she was still fully clothed when she arrived and they saw no evidence of rape. The docs who said she arrived covered only in a sheet are not contradicting the other docs, they were the second group of docs and she had been cut out of her uniform by the first group.
Well, that's my 2 cents for now. Am I making any sense?
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Posted 26 November 2003 - 08:43 AM
Matt...I know WO Young is writing a book, but his story has nothing to do with Jessica's. If you hear anything else, by all means, let us know!
Ticker -- a possibility...an assault in a moving vehicle may contribute to the roughness of the assault...but I still think it was during the 3 hour gap...if she was awake and tortured during tha time, a rape would be a logical part of such treatement...probably more hurtful than sheer physical pain.
Ticker -- a possibility...an assault in a moving vehicle may contribute to the roughness of the assault...but I still think it was during the 3 hour gap...if she was awake and tortured during tha time, a rape would be a logical part of such treatement...probably more hurtful than sheer physical pain.
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Posted 26 November 2003 - 09:00 AM
Ticker.
The problem with your argument is that Jessi's uniform and body armor were found in a house commonly known as the Baath Party house where she and Lori were taken immediately after the ambush. So when Jessi was (finally) taken to the military hospital, she was only wearing her military t-shirt and nothing more. This was established by multiple reports to include Kerry Sanders, the MSNBC reporter imbedded with the Marines in the area.
Jerry Hall
The problem with your argument is that Jessi's uniform and body armor were found in a house commonly known as the Baath Party house where she and Lori were taken immediately after the ambush. So when Jessi was (finally) taken to the military hospital, she was only wearing her military t-shirt and nothing more. This was established by multiple reports to include Kerry Sanders, the MSNBC reporter imbedded with the Marines in the area.
Jerry Hall
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Posted 26 November 2003 - 01:51 PM
I recall some posts after Jessi returned home to West Va. that there was someone interviewing all of the survivors of the ambush, and that this person was intending to write a book on the whole story of the 507th. I think it was CNN and Fox News that mentioned this also on the air. And it would tell the story of the other 5 POWs from the convoy, as well.
#7
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Posted 27 November 2003 - 10:31 AM
Lynch's and Lori's chem protective suits were recovered in the first building they were hustled off to.
Both had been cut away.
Their flak jackets, likewise, were recovered.
They were wearing only the chem suit tops and bottoms plus underclothing (and boots, of course). Their LBE (load bearing equipment) and flak jackets were likewise removed by their attackers / captors.
Initial reports of their possible wounds and injuries were derived from the state of the chem suits and flak jackets as recovered by the Marines. These were initial triage assessments as no one could tell whose blood was whose; and what the actual cause of the apparent or possible injury might have been. For example, Lynch's flak jacket was perforated...which led to belief of possible bullet or shrapnel wounds. From what distance or when could not be determined. However, the medical response and capabilities of the initial combat life saver to enter the hospital during her recovery, and the follow-on at Talil with the CASEVAC 47, could be and were pre-planned for and proved effective.
Pointless regarding the beatings and assault. These occurred during the three hours that both women were held by their attackers. A decision process was being made by their limited chain of command (the FEY) as to what to do with them. At some point some person in some form of authority ordered them delivered to the hospital. This was a command and control center, first and foremost. They were being delivered to a collection point for POWs, with all that conveys when considering how the Iraqi war / political machine saw POWs in terms of use / benefit.
When and how Lori died is most likely well documented in the autopsy performed by the Army after her remains were recovered. This information will and is confidential as it should be. The same holds true for all those others so recovered. Bear in mind the US Army has some of the finest forensic experts in the world in uniform. They have been working the body dumps in Bosnia, Kosovo, Serbia, and beyond for years now. War crimes evidence in this form is critical information and there should be no doubt the physical evidence regarding those recovered is well documented and being held in the ready for future legal application once suspects are fully identified and then taken into custody.
Mohammnd's book sounds interesting. Will have to find a copy and read. Again, bit player albeit one of many bit players who provided pieces to the puzzle that ultimately led to a successful recovery operation. What will be interesting is when better researched, better documented, better written Works come out on this subject. These noted are meant to capitalize on the matter in terms of making as much $$ as possible, in as short a time as possible. Hence shallow water in those areas most critical. Lynch did well to control the direction of her co-authorship in terms of not being too badly exploited or exaggerated. Kudos to her and her family on this point.
As for the doctors at the hospital...they got and retained their positions in the previous Iraqi society by being good Baa'thists (supporters loyal to SH). Interesting not one offers to have made an effort to best protect Lynch, and report the murder / deaths of the other POWs, to the Coalition and its forces in and around NASS, by risking their own lives and making their way to our lines. Imagine the impact such a report and Presence would have had. An Iraqi doctor, in the flesh, giving first hand information to include med records, treatment, diagrams of the hospital and where ALL were or suspected of being, first hand account of what and who from the Iraqi military and paramilitary were in-house at the hospital, and so on.
However, as good Baa'thists they did only what they were told to do, and no doubt have said only what they were told to say, and are today withholding the Truth as only they know it for fear of reprisal / possible litigation (Hey, the World Court is a busy place these days). The orderlies, nurses, and caregivers are, most likely, truly angels. However, the doctors sung and danced to the Baa'th Party line up until those who could have, and would have, shot them otherwise had left the premises.
All the docs are doing well these days. Business as usual. One of Saddam's personal physicians today practices openly in Baghdad where he does great work...as one would expect. Personally, I give no credit to those physicians that attended to Lynch. They did what they were ordered to do and nothing more, and nothing less. Better one of them had made his way to our Forces than the handful of folks who, for whatever reason, chose to. They, like the Nazi doctors of WW2, "only followed their orders" and then bleated how many they'd "saved" to the Allied liberators. Most, like Lynch's "doctors", walked away clean after the war and reestablished their practices.
If we read and learn from History, we don't repeat its mistakes as often.
GW
Both had been cut away.
Their flak jackets, likewise, were recovered.
They were wearing only the chem suit tops and bottoms plus underclothing (and boots, of course). Their LBE (load bearing equipment) and flak jackets were likewise removed by their attackers / captors.
Initial reports of their possible wounds and injuries were derived from the state of the chem suits and flak jackets as recovered by the Marines. These were initial triage assessments as no one could tell whose blood was whose; and what the actual cause of the apparent or possible injury might have been. For example, Lynch's flak jacket was perforated...which led to belief of possible bullet or shrapnel wounds. From what distance or when could not be determined. However, the medical response and capabilities of the initial combat life saver to enter the hospital during her recovery, and the follow-on at Talil with the CASEVAC 47, could be and were pre-planned for and proved effective.
Pointless regarding the beatings and assault. These occurred during the three hours that both women were held by their attackers. A decision process was being made by their limited chain of command (the FEY) as to what to do with them. At some point some person in some form of authority ordered them delivered to the hospital. This was a command and control center, first and foremost. They were being delivered to a collection point for POWs, with all that conveys when considering how the Iraqi war / political machine saw POWs in terms of use / benefit.
When and how Lori died is most likely well documented in the autopsy performed by the Army after her remains were recovered. This information will and is confidential as it should be. The same holds true for all those others so recovered. Bear in mind the US Army has some of the finest forensic experts in the world in uniform. They have been working the body dumps in Bosnia, Kosovo, Serbia, and beyond for years now. War crimes evidence in this form is critical information and there should be no doubt the physical evidence regarding those recovered is well documented and being held in the ready for future legal application once suspects are fully identified and then taken into custody.
Mohammnd's book sounds interesting. Will have to find a copy and read. Again, bit player albeit one of many bit players who provided pieces to the puzzle that ultimately led to a successful recovery operation. What will be interesting is when better researched, better documented, better written Works come out on this subject. These noted are meant to capitalize on the matter in terms of making as much $$ as possible, in as short a time as possible. Hence shallow water in those areas most critical. Lynch did well to control the direction of her co-authorship in terms of not being too badly exploited or exaggerated. Kudos to her and her family on this point.
As for the doctors at the hospital...they got and retained their positions in the previous Iraqi society by being good Baa'thists (supporters loyal to SH). Interesting not one offers to have made an effort to best protect Lynch, and report the murder / deaths of the other POWs, to the Coalition and its forces in and around NASS, by risking their own lives and making their way to our lines. Imagine the impact such a report and Presence would have had. An Iraqi doctor, in the flesh, giving first hand information to include med records, treatment, diagrams of the hospital and where ALL were or suspected of being, first hand account of what and who from the Iraqi military and paramilitary were in-house at the hospital, and so on.
However, as good Baa'thists they did only what they were told to do, and no doubt have said only what they were told to say, and are today withholding the Truth as only they know it for fear of reprisal / possible litigation (Hey, the World Court is a busy place these days). The orderlies, nurses, and caregivers are, most likely, truly angels. However, the doctors sung and danced to the Baa'th Party line up until those who could have, and would have, shot them otherwise had left the premises.
All the docs are doing well these days. Business as usual. One of Saddam's personal physicians today practices openly in Baghdad where he does great work...as one would expect. Personally, I give no credit to those physicians that attended to Lynch. They did what they were ordered to do and nothing more, and nothing less. Better one of them had made his way to our Forces than the handful of folks who, for whatever reason, chose to. They, like the Nazi doctors of WW2, "only followed their orders" and then bleated how many they'd "saved" to the Allied liberators. Most, like Lynch's "doctors", walked away clean after the war and reestablished their practices.
If we read and learn from History, we don't repeat its mistakes as often.
GW
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Posted 27 November 2003 - 01:18 PM
There is another possibility regarding the rape.The Iraqi soldiers could have dressed Jessica again as a way of concealing the rape.Also I have noticed that not one Iraqi doctor has ever mentioned the fractures on Jessica's shoulder blade and lower spine.If they had failed to spot these injuries I cant see how they could have the spotted the injuries due the rape. 1
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Posted 27 November 2003 - 05:11 PM
I have just received both books in the post.I have started reading Jessica's book and I have had a quick flick through Mohammads.I noticed on page 183 when Mohammad goes back to the hospital for the second time to see Jessica,he mentions that Jessica had bruises to the side of the face and a swelling on her left brow.In the summer I brought a magazine on Operation Iraqi Freedom it contained a colour photograph of Jessica as she was leaving Landstuhl and you can see that she does have a swelling on her left brow and bruises on the left side of her face.He must have got really close to her to see that!
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Posted 01 December 2003 - 09:47 AM
...or he bought the same publication you did as "inspiration".
Bear in mind Lynch has not yet elected to meet her "savior".
He was bit player; he made the best deal possible for himself and his family; he did not provide the key information / intelligence that confirmed Lynch's exact location and status (being alive) and hence launched the recovery operation.
Perhaps a nice man but there were several other nice folks who likewise contributed and did not receive the benefits he has.
I'm waiting for Black Belt magazine to interview him...
GW
Bear in mind Lynch has not yet elected to meet her "savior".
He was bit player; he made the best deal possible for himself and his family; he did not provide the key information / intelligence that confirmed Lynch's exact location and status (being alive) and hence launched the recovery operation.
Perhaps a nice man but there were several other nice folks who likewise contributed and did not receive the benefits he has.
I'm waiting for Black Belt magazine to interview him...
GW
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Posted 02 December 2003 - 06:22 AM
Hello,
You people are not suspicious enough!
Keep in mind that anonymous military sources first claimed that Jessica was fighting to the death, then that she was tortured and denied basic medical care, and then that she had amnesia and couldn't remember anything of the entire ordeal (a lie which would have enabled Jessica to maintain the pretense of being a hero, if she had had fewer scruples). The Iraqi doctors not only saved her life, but they tried to return her before the special ops rescue. The hospital staff donated blood to her at a time when they were receiving over 200 Iraqi casualties a day. She got one of the only beds in the hospital. If they had had pain meds, I expect they would have given them to her. These doctors claim they saw no signs of rape-like trauma. They furthermore state that if she had been sexually assaulted, it would have probably killed her given the extent of her injuries.
The US doctors, meanwhile, originally claimed that they had found two gunshot wounds in Jessica's body (page 164 of her book). This should raise questions as to their competence, if nothing else. They also took over 10 weeks to clarify that most of her major injuries had come from the Humvee crash, and not from any possible torture (see Washington Post, June 17). The US army was using Jessica, and her doctors were colluding with the whole thing by not clarifying false stories about torture. In the interview with Diane Sawyer it seems even Jessica is not sure if she should believe the doctors about the rape -- she thinks it is probable, but she is not sure.
Research in the above posts lists two possibilities: that Jessica was raped and the soldiers put her clothes back on, or that she was raped during tha ambulance ride. Is it so impossible to consider that either (a) the doctors are completely part of the propaganda machine and deliberately told her a lie, or (
that they were simply mistaken? Any rape must have been fairly severe if they found unambiguous evidence for it some eight days later. Why did the Iraqi doctors not see it? If they made a "mistake" about the gunshot wounds, why not this?
There's my two cents, from a disbeliever.
Be well all, and best to Jessica. I'm sorry for your ordeal.
You people are not suspicious enough!
Keep in mind that anonymous military sources first claimed that Jessica was fighting to the death, then that she was tortured and denied basic medical care, and then that she had amnesia and couldn't remember anything of the entire ordeal (a lie which would have enabled Jessica to maintain the pretense of being a hero, if she had had fewer scruples). The Iraqi doctors not only saved her life, but they tried to return her before the special ops rescue. The hospital staff donated blood to her at a time when they were receiving over 200 Iraqi casualties a day. She got one of the only beds in the hospital. If they had had pain meds, I expect they would have given them to her. These doctors claim they saw no signs of rape-like trauma. They furthermore state that if she had been sexually assaulted, it would have probably killed her given the extent of her injuries. The US doctors, meanwhile, originally claimed that they had found two gunshot wounds in Jessica's body (page 164 of her book). This should raise questions as to their competence, if nothing else. They also took over 10 weeks to clarify that most of her major injuries had come from the Humvee crash, and not from any possible torture (see Washington Post, June 17). The US army was using Jessica, and her doctors were colluding with the whole thing by not clarifying false stories about torture. In the interview with Diane Sawyer it seems even Jessica is not sure if she should believe the doctors about the rape -- she thinks it is probable, but she is not sure.
Research in the above posts lists two possibilities: that Jessica was raped and the soldiers put her clothes back on, or that she was raped during tha ambulance ride. Is it so impossible to consider that either (a) the doctors are completely part of the propaganda machine and deliberately told her a lie, or (
that they were simply mistaken? Any rape must have been fairly severe if they found unambiguous evidence for it some eight days later. Why did the Iraqi doctors not see it? If they made a "mistake" about the gunshot wounds, why not this?There's my two cents, from a disbeliever.
Be well all, and best to Jessica. I'm sorry for your ordeal.
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