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If Jessi Was Tortured... why was she singled out?

#1 User is offline   Kicks 

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  Posted 19 November 2003 - 01:32 PM

on the "book spoiler" thread, ticker asked in response to the possibility that Jessi really was tortured:

QUOTE
I wonder why she was treated so much worse than the other POWs?


That a darn good question. What could she have done to provoke her captors. She didn't kill anybody, she didn't even get off a shot. I was surprised (but thankful) that they didn't kill any of our soliders that killed any of them.

Did she spit in their faces?

Is it that Jessi was the smallest of the bunch, so these coward, bullys chose her?

Did they think she would 'break' first and give them information they wanted?

What more information than her senior officers would she have?

Did they need to know where we keep our toilet paper?

dry.gif


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#2 User is offline   Matt Wiser 

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Posted 19 November 2003 - 01:48 PM

The first four questions are logical ones, plus this one: they may have intended to use her as an example to the other POWs-turn Jessi into a wreck, and show her to the others that "this is what will happen to you if you don't cooperate." Fortunately, she was injured enough to prevent the Iraqis from moving her to Baghdad, and that may have been their ultimate intention. Once the road was cut, she still had value-as a human shield. (which Iraq did in the last Gulf War: POWs were held in the Iraqi Intelligence Service HQ-which was bombed on 23 Feb 91, fortunately, no POWs were injured) Another possiblity is that they did it out of spite-the 507th did kill some of the attackers, and IF there were casualties inflicted from Jessi's Hummer, she may have been a victim of Iraqi revenge. And remember what Mohammed said: an eyewitness to Jessi's capture told him that she had been dragged from the Hummer and beaten. Then she was taken away-the house where her dog tags, body armor, and uniform were found? All speculation though, but no one can penalize you if you speculate.
Treat everyone you meet with kindness and respect, but always have ready a plan to kill them.

Old USMC Adage
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#3 User is offline   lanieer416 

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Posted 19 November 2003 - 02:07 PM

What I found to be puzzling was the fact that Shoshana said at first they thought she was a man and began to grab at her uniform. When they realized that she was a woman they stopped and she said were decent to her. Why, after showing Shoshana at least a little consideration because she was a woman, turn around and use the other woman as an example to the others. Weren't the people the same individuals that captured both? I found that very puzzling that they would have treated one woman with at least some dignity and then torture another or did she somehow seperate from the others and end up with an evil Baath Party leader. Very puzzling. It certainly does make you wonder what really happened and why. And yes I also remember the statement that Mohammed said about an eyewitness to the capture regarding the rifle butts. I don't think we will ever know because I'll be shocked if any war crimes are ever charged. I'm sure the investigation has been dropped. As much as it upsets me, the Lynch story is probably a sore topic with the Army now and they would rather forget about it. It bothers me enormously but I believe that will be the case.
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#4 User is offline   Soprano84 

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Posted 19 November 2003 - 02:22 PM

I think I read somewhere that the POWs themselves (may have been Riley) said after their capture, Iraqi regulars took custody of them...more likely to at least adhere to SOME of the Geneva Conventions. If Jessica and Lori were taken by Fedayeen, however, their treatment could've been very different, as evidenced by the 3 HOUR gap between the humvee wreck and jessica waking up in the first hospital...3 hours that could've possibly saved Lori's life, assuming her mortal wounds came from the RPG and wreck, and not being abused later..
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#5 User is offline   Kicks 

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  Posted 19 November 2003 - 02:46 PM

QUOTE
I think I read somewhere that the POWs themselves (may have been Riley) said after their capture, Iraqi regulars took custody of them...more likely to at least adhere to SOME of the Geneva Conventions. If Jessica and Lori were taken by Fedayeen, however, their treatment could've been very different


I think that makes a lot of sense.
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#6 User is offline   perilousgirl 

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Posted 19 November 2003 - 03:21 PM

The Fedayeen don't need much inspiration to carry out their hatred. They are the dregs of society and are just brutal animals. One of their methods of torture is to drop cinder blocks onto the backs and limbs of their prisoners. "Lying" is a cause for torture and perhaps Jessi just didn't repond to them. She has been described as being stoic.
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#7 User is offline   ANDY 

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Posted 19 November 2003 - 04:15 PM

I think most people seem to have forgotten that the two other soldiers in the back of the Humvee with Jessica were mechanics from the 3rd Infantry Division.Both would have been heavier armed and better trained than the 507th.Also from what I can gather from excerpts from the book Master Sgt Dowdys weapon was also working.I think they could have inflicted some serious damage on the Iraqis,far greater than what PFC Miller did.
Also the other 5 pows seem to have been in the custody of the Iraqi military and were taken away from the scene fairly quickly.It does appear that Jessica was unfortunate to fall into the hands of the Fedayeen who could have been pretty mad at whoever was in the back of the Humvee.
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#8 User is offline   sherry2310 

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Posted 19 November 2003 - 05:53 PM

I wonder if they were so outraged that it was a woman -they don't have much respect for their own women, "Honor killings" are still justified- if it was misogynistic behavior. They probably didn't beat on shoshana since there were other american prisoners that would see. I mean how macho is it to be seen beating on a woman?
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#9 User is offline   Matt Wiser 

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 03:16 AM

That matches with some of the GW I POWs: A number have said that when they were held by the regular military, they were treated fairly well-proper food, medical care, etc. When they were passed from the military to the Secret Police, that's when things got really bad. Only after the Secret Police HQ was bombed were most of the POWs transferred, first to Abu Gruhaib Prison, and then to the Al-Rashid Military Prison.
At the latter location, treatment improved, but that was likely to the fact that the war was just about over, and the Iraqis started to fatten them up. The POWs held at Al-Rashid the whole time had some periods of good treatment, and some bad ones: check the book Bravo Two Zero by Andy McNab-he was an SAS trooper captured on an anti-SCUD patrol and held at Al-Rashid. Melissa Rathbun-Nealy (now Coleman) was there also, and she told relatives that the first two weeks were not pretty, and the last two were bearable. Those at Al-Rashid were lucky: they were under the control of the military, not the secret police or other regime bully-boys. Jessica was probably taken by Fedayeen-and the viciousness of these scum toward their own people is well known-if she was taken by Fedayeen, then there's your answer right there. The military knew that Saddam's days were numbered and they'd better treat the POWs (relatively) well. Fedayeen are another story. Now, if some of these bullies who did this are in U.S. custody, there should be a trial; but most of them are probably dead, if not at the hands of the Marines who took Nasiriya, then at the hands of their own people-there was some score-settling before the Marines fully secured the town. But putting Chemical Ali on trial on charges of using Jessi as a human shield, and for Command Responsiblity (knowing about her torture and doing nothing to stop it, or ordering it in the first place) is another option.
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#10 User is offline   ticker 

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 03:47 AM

Soprano84, you are on the same page as me. I was thinking the same thing. The 5 POWs who were shown on tv were probably taken by regular Iraqi soldiers, while Jessica was left with the dead and dying to be assaulted by the locals and irregulars when she came to. If Miller and the others who saw her feet twitching hadn't left her for dead, had pulled her out and kept her with them when they surrendered to the regular froces, she may not have fallen into the hands of the worst of the worst.
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#11 User is offline   ticker 

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 03:50 AM

As for Chemical Ali, it doesn't matter if he is charged with Jessica's assaults. The crimes against humanity he is known to be guilty of, gassing the kurds, killing tens of thousands of Shias, will send him to the gallows.
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#12 User is offline   Dilligafst 

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 01:30 PM

I suspect that is what happened. Jessica was pulled from the wreck by the Fedayeen or by local villagers that mashed her afterwards. From the very beginning of all this I had heard that she was very roughly handled, but had not been able to see why when the other prisoners were not mashed to a pulp either. Miller and the others were fighting for their lives and probably had no time to take care of anyone in that smashed humvee. But Jessica told her father that the Iraqi man had broken her arm, but not which man -- soldier, Fedayeen, or whatever. Of course, she couldn't know that. Ruben also got her another bracelet or something to replace the one that the Iraqis had taken, so I suspect the looters and treasure-hunters were at work too. What is amazing is that someone did bring her to the hospital. The rest, of course, is history.


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#13 User is offline   Matt Wiser 

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 08:25 PM

Actually, Chemical Ali is in U.S custody, and posession being 9/10th the law, that means any crimes he allowed to be comitted against Americans, and not just POW (mis)treatment: acts of perfidy (false surrenders), having troops fight in civilian clothes, and other law of war violations earns him a trial at American hands. He won't be hanged, though. He'll be put in front of a wall to pose for rifle fire. He WAS in that hospital, using it as a command post, and was using Jessi as a human shield. If she was tortured by those under his command, he is just as responsible for it as those who directly participated. (Command Responsiblity again). Granted, what happened to Jessi is the least of his offenses, but since we have him, we get first crack at trying him.
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#14 User is offline   Focus 

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Posted 21 November 2003 - 07:52 PM

I believe the Fedayeen is largely made up of petty and not so petty criminals that were offered service in this militia as a way to avoid jail time.Basically they were a bunch of scumbags that saw their opportunity to do what they wanted with a defenceless girl,and they took it.It sure is a pity they were not all kept together as a group when taken prisoner.
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#15 User is offline   gwalker 

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Posted 24 November 2003 - 05:38 PM

Just returned from second tour in Baghdad, Iraq.

Read PVT Lynch's book on the long flight back.

Posted on this site more than several months back re: her rescue and the operation conducted to effect that rescue.

Some additional notes in lieu of the book and thoughts/observations posted on this thread.

Lynch was dragged from the vehicle and beaten. Those who captured her were the most brutal and devoted to Saddam. The southern portion of Iraq, at the time of the war's beginning, was flooded by Saddam Fey. and Special Security Organization (SSO) forces. They fought as guerrillas in both the urban and rural environments, attacking the main supply routes (MSRs) and defending the cities which we'd stated before hand we would bypass in favor of taking Baghdad.

Their attacks on the MSRs became so effective that both the 82nd Airborne Division and the Navy's SEALs were tasked to conduct operations against these guerrillas to protect, as best as possible, the support troops now moving up behind the combat forces. The SEALs conducted nighttime hunter-killer missions in the desert and around known towns and cities where the guerrillas were operating out of.

The original fight for Nasiriyah saw the Marines take heavy casualties. They did not like operating in the city because of this. It was house to house, street to street, and their mobile capability was hampered at every turn and faced determined RPG attack(s) as well as determined, fanatical defenders. By the time the 507th wandered into town the Fey./SSO were blooded, had won some hard victories against the Marines, and were eager to tear up yet another US convoy.

The political/religious doctrine of the Fey/SSO was not discussed in the book. In short, Lynch represented everything wrong in their world regarding females, much less Americans, much less an American "Crusader" on sacred soil. In their world she was to be - and was - treated as less than an animal. Being beaten and sexually assaulted was a given. It is truly a miracle she did not die then, or was not killed later simply out of hand.

Hers and LP's flak jackets (names taped to their inside panels), and chemical warfare suits (which both were wearing at the time), were recovered by Marines searching buildings and offices near the scene of the attack. Both flak jackets were punctured and blood stained. The chem-bio suits were cut down the fronts of the pants and were likewise bloodied. These were recovered in an upstairs lavatory in the building they'd been taken to and held in initially. It is here, most likely, Lynch was further beaten and assaulted for the 3 hours she does not recall.

When the clothing and flak jackets were found, and their condition described, we knew both young women had been brutalized.

Lynch's later presence in the hospital was widely known by the population in general and reports of her presence came in on a consistent basis to those US forces outside NAS. No fewer than 6 locals were interviewed at length regarding Lynch being held at the hospital, with the overrated lawyer being merely one of these and a bit player at that. The Marines at TF Tarawa did not conduct significant interviews with the locals, leaving that to be done by US special operations forces co-located with them. Once it was established beyond a reasonable doubt that Lynch was indeed present and alive, the mission was hastily put together and launched.

In the aftermath of Lynch being rescued the hospital was visited by US Forces. The Marines had already taken a number of light infantry weapons from inside the facility, but US SF forces did recover an additional number of AK47s from the basement area. Also found at the "hospital" were sand tables for the planning of military operations; documents; military equipment and uniforms; torture rooms; and evidence of Iraqi high value targets possibly having been present ("Chemical Ali" and "Dr. Germ"). The area around the hospital was significanty prepped by overhead fires (AC130 gunship) prior to the assault team landing, and rangers from both 1st and 2nd battalion(s) secured the inner perimeter during the assault. The Marines created an outer perimeter using their mech forces. Besides Lynch, the objective was to locate any Iraqi HVTs and kill/capture them; and locate any evidence of weapons of mass destruction being stored at the hospital.

Upon entry the assault team reported finding two dead bodies in the hospital's small courtyard, and later additional bodies in the morgue that appeared to be US or Coalition; and then the mass grave site in the soccer field area. No shots were required to be fired during the assault. This due to both the heavy prep of the immediate area just prior to the force going in, and the fact the FEY / SSO had evacuated the hospital upon the initial overhead fire and attack alerting them as to "good guys inbound".

There were a number of casualties from the prep phase and many of these were being treated inside the hospital both during and after the assault. Their numbers grew the morning afterward and after the assault force had fully departed the area. Again, this was the FEY/SSO purpose for using the hospital in the first place as a command and control center, as well as field interrogation site for POWs such as Lynch.

Lynch was flown by Blackhawk to Talil Air Field, then by a specially equipped CH-47 from Talil to Kuwait where she was initially treated and secured before being further evacuated to Germany.

As noted, she is fortunate and blessed to have lived through this event. Why her captors did not kill her at any stage of her captivity is unknown. That she was brutalized is a fact. Those other US POWs taken prisoner from the 507th were likewise mistreated in terms of being struck, humiliated, and tortured to one degree or another. They themselves alluded to this during one nationally broadcast interview during which one former POW was reminded by his fellow soldiers they were not to discuss their mistreatment in public.

Lynch's weapon being inoperable was most likely due to dirty magazines, an important piece of the overall M16 weapons system that most support soldiers are never taught how to properly clean and maintain. Dirty magazines were the cause of many malfunctions for this reason throughout the war. The M9 pistol magazine was the worst offender in this respect. A dirty magazine will cause a misfeed and jam a rifle in a heartbeat. It is as likely this occurred for Lynch as anything else. She reports cleaning her rifle. She does not, and if asked today, would probably concur she never took the entire magazine assembly apart for those magazines she was issued and cleaned them...ever. They were most likely fully loaded, and remained loaded for some time during which sand, grit, and the fine Iraqi desert powder coated their interiors and the rounds loaded into them. A formula for malfunction and catastrophic failure if ever there were one.

In the end her firing a shot one way or the other would not have made a difference. In fact, it may have been the first of many miracles that ultimately saved her life.

Found the book thoughtfully written and most illustrative of a very fine human being. Jesse became the focal point of a huge war machine that needed a victory badly on that first day in April. She truly has no idea how many were watching and from where. Her composure even under the worst circumstances, as video taped on scene and rushed to Camp Doha, Kuwait, upon her arrival in country, galvanized US and Coalition forces across the theatre. The entire experience was far bigger than Jesse Lynch. She was at its core, and she demonstated with a wane smile, hands clutching at a folded American flag laid across her, and with eyes that bespoke the horror of her captivity that the least among us had been wounded and mistreated, and that the best among us had gone for her and brought her home.

For the American Soldier this message came across loud and clear. And it invoked a wrath, a fury, a pride, and a determination for both vengence and victory that saw literally thousands of FEY/SSO/RA/RG/SRG forces killed without mercy or concern as our forces trampled them in the rush to Baghdad.

No one but a soldier, sailor, airman or Marine can or will understand this.

But it is the Truth and no words, books, or interviews will ever capture the Spirit this event invoked from 1 April until Baghdad was taken.

Lynch is more than a hero. She became and remains a powerful and positive symbol to those who identified with her from the moment she was captured, to the moment she was freed.

De Oppresso Liber
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